Your input - change to skills.

[Grayell]

Ok guys, so there has been some discussion between Alex, Don and myself; as well as some ongoing discussion on the board around things you think the skill system could do to have.

As Alex has no doubt mentioned, I have been meaning to update the game for some time. There's quite a bit of work to be done of course and one of the things to change was going to be as follows:

- Players will spend acclaim like gold on skill points.
- They will cost the same as their numeric value (level 3 skill costs 3 points).
- Skills would be capped at 10 (or 20, I don't recall which was more balanced right now).

That's still going to happen. It's easier and really wouldn't change much, except for the admin who are going to nerf their points to balance things a bit further.

Now, here's where I need your opinion. There was a lot of discussion around specialization and skills that are 'missing'. Here's what I am proposing.

The skills we have become just the key categories, really. You would invest in more specific skills, making your character more unique and better defining what they can and cannot do. For example:

THIEVING:
- Moving silently.
- Concealment.
- Pickpocketing.
- Lockpicking.
- Detect traps.
- Disarm traps.
- Set traps.
- Sleight of hand.
- Poisons.
- Assassination.

That's quite the list. As you can imagine, picking what you like and mixing it up with other skills would really allow you to customize.

But what about weapon skills? Well, let's dump them all in warfare.

WARFARE:
- Piercing weapons, 1 hand.
- Slashing weapons, 1 hand.
- Bashing weapons, 1 hand.
- Piercing weapons, 2 hand.
- Slashing weapons, 2 hand.
- Bashing weapons, 2 hand.
- Exotic weaponry.
- Polearms.
- Thrown weapons, light.
- Thrown weapons, heavy.
- Wrisbows/Crossbows.
- Longbow/recurve/composite.
- Shield use.
- Dual wielding.
- Pugilism - striking.
- Pugilism - brawling.
- Critical strikes.

This could use some refinement, of course. I quite like the variation and the slight variation in the non-armed fighting style. I also consider there to be different defensive styles, but they can go in athleticism (eg: evasion/footwork and endurance or just plain being tough.)

So the other big question is magic. Let me be quite open about two points:

- Magic should be a specialized field. If you want to be good at it, you should spend more points at the cost of not being nearly as physically or socially adept as other characters may be. It should take a lot of study and it should be capable of great things.

- Needing to 'bend' your element sucks. Let's manifest instead.

And hey, why not a third.... - Mixing and matching elements is a pain in the ass. People should specialize and until they master, should be stuck on one element for the sake of my brain not exploding.

Now, even with all the work done on magic, there's still some space left for 'well crap, I just don't know how this works.' So let's consider what magic consists of when we look at the skills for it.

MAGIC:
- Offensive power.
- Defensive power.
- Duration.
- Range.
- Area of effect.
- Enchantment.
- Manifestation (ie, how quick it is to have the desired effect).
- Cantrips.
- Manipulation.
- Willpower. (or what we will just call MAGIC ENDURANCE).
- Resilience. (read, defense against magic).

Now, there won't be spells or mana, but these skills would neatly break down just what you can do. The more skills you need at higher levels, the more 'costly' it would be. A skill to HELP offset that wouldn't be bad. How does it work?

Ok, so you want to summon a ball of light and have it wander along behind you whilst you roam through the dungeon? Ok, it was light out, you have some points in manipulation, so you didn't have to create it from scratch, which saves you some bother. You have a couple of points in duration, so no worries, it might last a short while. There's not much else to that one. AOE might make it brighter

You want a firestorm to consume an army. Well gee, you're going to need offensive power, AOE, range to hit them and some willpower would be nice so that you don't drain your brain doing so.





Ok gang, that's a good start; I think. Lay your feedback on me.

[Alexander]

I really like where this is heading. I like the idea of the broken down skills and the proposed changes to magic as it seems to be heading to something I'm more familiar and comfortable with.

My only concern is trying to find that fine line between breaking a skill down, and breaking it down TOO much.

For example: Would we be better off, or at least just as good, if we had just one "Traps" sub-skill instead of making it three?

[Serenity]

I still think that offensive and defensive power for magic is a little blurred. Say that someone who specialized with defensive power for their earth magic can summon a rock wall for protection, but is incapable of throwing that same sheet of bedrock at their enemies because they don't have any points in the offensive form.

I think the two should just be folded together for 'Power'

[Neko]

I wouldn't see it as them being incapable. Just not that good at it. Much like someone picking up a sword, but having no dots in it. They can still swing, but their chances of hitting are pretty low.

Most mages SHOULD be spreading their points around anyway, but yes I understand that not all will.

[Serenity]

I believe that's something else entirely. To use that analogy with what I'm talking about, it's like being able to parry with the sword but somehow not able to attack back with it. If I can use water to slap away an attack, why can't I use it to do the same with your face? If I can use wind to blow away an arrow, why can't I use it to push you?

[Dieter]

I gotta agree with Serenity here, 'Power' makes a lot more sense to me than separating it into offense and defense. I could see the argument for say, Earth spikes on offense vs. Earth armor on defense, but I like the idea of just a single 'Power' better, it's simpler.

[Grayell]

That was about to be my suggestion. Power or 'force' would solve that problem and the skills is certainly broken down plenty, as suggested. Alex, you're also spot on with traps.

This is a very raw idea that needs to be refined before it's adopted so please, continue.

[Neko]

Would it be possible to get a mock up of a list posted so that we can start going down through each one and getting input on how its broken down?

Or do you want to do it one group at a time?

That way make alterations as we go until we reach the finished product, but have the list so we can reference.

might just sound good to me cause i work better visually/tangibly...having something to manipulate...

[Grayell]

I don't have the time presently, but feel free to collaborate one.

[Grayell]

Other than magic and combat, this is what I just came up with:

ATHLETICS:
Brawn
Acrobatics
Speed
Endurance
Flexibility
Packmule

CREATIVITY:
Invention
Smithing
Haberdashery
Culinary
Art
Mechanics
Fashion
Building

COMMUNICATION:
Liasion
Performance
Persuasion
Intimidation
Flirtation
Intuition
Bribery
Languages

KNOWLEDGE
Folklore
Philosophy
Customs & Cultures
Literature
Geography
Zooology
Medicine
Horticulture
Chemistry
Trivia
History

THIEVING:
Trapworks
Moving silently
Camouflage
Remaining undetected
Lockpicking
Pickpocketing
Sleight of hand
Cheating
Assassination
Packrat
Disguise

SURVIVAL:
Herbology
Practical Zooology
Resourcefulness
Resilience
Awareness
Animal Kinship
Orientation
Hunting & tracking
Elusion

[Serenity]

My thoughts on a few of these:

Athletics

Acrobatics: I think given the culmination of all the different exercises it takes to become an accomplished acrobat it can be assumed that flexibility is among them. Unless flexibility was added with a different idea in mind, I believe it should be removed from the list.

Brawn: I know this isn't D&D, but strength, or brawn in this case, has usually coincided with how much you could carry so you could fold 'pack mule' into it; just to make it simpler.


Creativity

Invention: This one should be ruled carefully, otherwise you may have someone trying to Civ this badboy and take us into the next age of technology. I dunno, I just remember the headaches with Marg is all.


Communication

Liaison: This one I feel is sort of alike with persuasion, especially, and though not as much, flirtation.

Knowledge

Trivia: I personally don't see anyone spending points in this one lol. Plus, it almost steps into 'folklore' I think.


Thieving

Remaining Undetected: This one speaks for itself, but it also seems redundant when you already have 'move silently,' disguise,' and 'camouflage.' It's kinda assumed if you have either of those skills you don't want to be found out.

[Grayell]

Awesome, let's keep the ball rolling.

I thought about flexibility along the lines of contortion, perhaps it's not something that needs it's own skill. Perhaps it does, but needs something with a bit more meat on it's bones. I am just throwing them out there and hope to hear other's thoughts on the matter. I consider acrobatics the climbing, leaping and tumbling.

Invention is a mother, but it is hard to not have it available. It can be curbed with a hard and fast rule - no making your own gear or permanent items. I don't know, it's always a can of worms. Hoping for more feedback here.

Liaison, I consider eloquence and speaking in a confident manner. You may be right with this one and really, it's a pretty b broad term. Perhaps we need a couple more takes on communication instead.

The reason I added trivia, is because I thought it may be fun to have the random knowledge skill. Your GM might just throw you a bone once in a while.... though I suppose dedicated knowledge would be better? Not sure.

Oh hey, you are on point with remaining undetected. The moving silently is just that and this was intended for hiding. Disguise I consider appearing as someone else, but you may be spot on with camouflage - though I consider this the application of things to blend with your surroundings. Hiding is just squeezing in that crack in the wall. Some more feedback needed.

Anything we could do to have?

[Alexander]

Thanks, Gray. Theres something about having it in front of me that helps me figure things out better.

I agree with Flexibility and Packmule. They can be folded into other skills.

I see Liason as being made up of the things listed below it so I feel it could go away. I also could see Flirtation going away as it could just be RPed as HOW you do some of those other skills, especially Persuasion...


I agree with Trivia being able to go away. And with the Culture & Customs (A skill I REALLY like) I'm tempted to say some of the others could be folded into it, (like folklore) but on the fence with it.


Moving Silently and Remaining undetected could go together into a Stealth Skill...maybe even include Camo again as a HOW you approach the skill...Cheating might be able to go into Sleight of Hand...And not sure about Packrat, what was the thought behind that just so I might understand better?


Not sure about the need for two different Zooology skills...and on the fence about Elusion considering the Thieving skills...


Back to the Weapon skills I think we could do without the Crit Strike skill and just have that be something the GM takes into account based on skill level in the used ability...


So, outside of Magic, I think that covers all areas. Seeing the list, I can't think of anything that is blatantly missing...

[Grayell]

Alright, answers

Moving silently and anything hided were made separate so we don't have a blanket OP stealth skill. They're not the same thing and other systems to differentiate between them.

I was thinking of renaming flirtation seduction and ask a woman, it's a skill all of it's own. Lol.

I see folklore as mythology, creation and god tales, superstition and so on. Culture and customs I see as foreign etiquette - do you leave your shoes on or take your hat off?

I think cheating is self sustaining enough and thought it made an interesting addition to anyone inclined to gamble. You may be right with sleight of hand covering it though, let's see what people think.

I think camouflage can be nerfed, it seems a bit obscure.

Packmule, I made it's own as I don't want any skill covering 'an additional thing' - like agility allowing dual wielding. I was thinking we should perhaps just go back to inventory having weight values, but haven't given it much thought. It is a system that people understand.

Packrat was more of a 'stuffing things in your pockets' and carrying more tricks up your sleeve. Without a decision on how much crap you can carry, this is an odd one as well. Regardless of system, it could be nifty.

Zoology is easy. A scholar has read all about many sorts of animals and even studied many, I imagine. Your survival type has a great working knowledge of the wildlife in the areas he is familiar or experienced with.

Elusion is the ability to not leave a trace behind you and sounds a lot better than 'no impct camping skills'.

[Neko]

Another one would be, how does resilence differ from what a player would get from endurance?


And packrat...could be something simple like allowing one additional small item per dot...


Is Assassination supposed to be like the "Backstab" ability thats seen in other games? If its not something special like that I could see it being more of a compelation and use of other skills and creative RP