Are we missing any areas in Talents?

[Neko]

So its been mentioned in the chat that perhaps there should be a Shield Talent added to the list. And I'm inclined to agree...

I've also thought about a Talent for some sort of Perception/awareness ability. How well does the character notice things basically...


And the ever popular Mental Fatigue skill that would deal with handling mental fatigue from magic use much like Endurance for Physical abilities...


What does everyone think of these ideas? How would you implement them if we did? Are there other areas that we seemed to have missed??


Here is our current list with descriptions...

TALENTS

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Agility:
Acrobatics, coordination, climbing, leaping, rolling, tumbling, flexibility and speed. This character is an athlete in that their body is finely tuned to perform at maximum efficiency. Excelling at most physical activities requires application of proper technique which means greater agility.
AGILITY AND DUAL WIELDING WEAPONRY.
Being dexterous allows a user to dual wield both single handed melee weapons and single handed ranged weapons. This is based on your Agility points as follows.

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[/size]Arts:
Cooking, creation, fashion, performance, singing, cultural trends and gossip. This character is up to speed on the latest 'what's hot.' They excel in the arts and know that the new black was pink but is now tangerine. They may not be great at liaison but they sure can put on a show.
Brawn:
Pushing, lifting, rolling, pulling, crushing and breaking. Hulk SMASH! Brawn is raw physical strength and the application of that strength. This character can apply their strength to many situations... not that strength is always the answer. This does not make them a better combatant, hitting harder doesn't mean you hit at all.
ARMOR & BRAWN:
Brawn also happens to be the one skill that dictates what kind of armor your character can wear. The higher your Brawn, the higher the load your character can carry which includes the armor that they wear. 0 Brawn is effectively an average character - and an average character cannot manage to go adventuring and remain active whilst lugging around encumbering armor and a pack full of gear. Each point in Brawn allows you to equip heavier gear as follow:

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[/size]Elemental Magic - Air:
Air Magic uses the force of the wind to attack and defend. It can be a controlling wind, disorienting foes, or a fierce tornado to protect the user and scatter enemies.
Elemental Magic - Blood:
Blood Magic was crafted by mages who sought more power in the dark arts and has historically been used to no good end. It is considered illegal in most places and taboo in all others. It is not inherently evil, but it's practitioners have not helped it's reputation...
Elemental Magic - Earth:
Earth Magic uses the force of the earth and ground to attack and defend. Hurtling pebbles with severe force at enemies or summoning great walls of solid granite to completely block their advance.
Elemental Magic - Dark:
Dark Magic is considered by society as a whole as evil and with good reason. Where blood magic has gained unprecedented infamy, dark magic is simply unspoken of for fear of it's power. Itis not the magic that is evil but rather, the intent of the user.
Elemental Magic - Fire:
Fire Magic uses the force of flame to attack and defend. A very dangerous element given it's natural state, it can burn and singe enemies with ease.
Elemental Magic - Light:
Light magic has been considered holly magic for countless years and through it's mundane and often religious use is often considered unimpressive or useless in combat. No other magic can hurt a dark creature or undead as much as light magic and with the sun's intensity, it is more than capable of being dangerous.
Elemental Magic - Water:
Water Magic uses the force of the oceans and rivers to attack and defend. It can be a wall of water to protect the user, or a tidal wave to scatter enemies.
Endurance:
Running, swimming, prolonged physical activity of common nature, resistance to elemental, environmental and ill effects. This character is not so much better at doing physical things as much as they can do them for longer. Quite a hardy character.

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[/size]Healing Magic:
Healing Magics may well be the most common magics in the realms, though this form of magic is rarely developed to it's full potential. A low level in this talent means naught but the ability to heal small wounds on oneself, whilst some training often leads to the ability to heal others with both time and concentration. Those choosing to master this art have been said to heal a handful of comrades with but a few words and stories exist of healers so great they could raise the dead.... All magic arts require concentration to perform and with continued use are quite draining to the user, meaning a character must exercise caution.
Ingenuity:
Invention, crafting, repairing, mechanics. This character has an understanding of how things are pulled apart and sometimes how they are put back together. Quite the handy man. This does not allow the creation of permanent items or modification of equipment without admin approval.
Kinship:
Unspoken communication, empathy, intuition, silent expression of emotion and desires. This character is able to better portray a desired feeling or emotion and in turn can better recognize such stimulus. Others around them may get a 'gut feeling' about the character and react accordingly. Please note that a target's intention or desire may overrule such attempts for example: A mother bear defending her cubs might wish you harm. Your kinship has her realize you are no threat. A goblin might wish you harm because well, he's a goblin. He doesn't care that you are or are not a threat - perhaps. This is not psychic ability.
Liaison:
Multi-lingual, ethnic customs and tradition, coercion, intimidation, persuasion, bribery, performance. This character is the consummate communicator and sales person, whether hawking goods or attempting to have someone see their point of view. They are not ignorant of other cultures social standards.
Lore:
The written word, popular and classic literature, history and common text book subjects, spoken traditions and myths, identification or artifacts, origins and architecture. This character is a bookworm, if it's written about they know something. This does not translate to actual application of such knowledge though as knowledge and experience are two entirely different things.
Martial Prowess:
The ability to kick the crap out of your opposition. Whether through martial arts training or countless years of bare knuckle brawling in bars, this talent means the sheer physical ability to put the hurt on. Martial Prowess does not apply to weapons but can be used in a complimentary manner, kicking as well as using a weapon effectively or the use of complex stances and footwork can make a weapon wielding warrior that much more deadly.
Medicine:
Anatomy and diseases, general scientific knowledge, ability to mend wounds, aid an injured target and generally prolong life. This character is the 'doc', they are capable of mending wounded creatures to some degree and identifying illnesses. They have some basic scientific understanding which would be considered relative to their field.
Physical Appeal:
Attractiveness, presentation, grooming, physical flirting, fashion. Sometimes the gift of the gab is not enough. Sometimes, people are just plain difficult to deal with and you may not have what they need. Physical Appeal however increases your chance to be just that - attractive to other people. It's amazing what you can get when people have certain.... urges.
Polearm Weaponry:
All polearms type weapons require the use of two hands but differ from other two handed weapons a great deal. They can be very versatile and have both offensive and defensive applications. They can vary from a dangerous Halberd to something as simple as a long wooden staff. Polearms are quite effective at keeping enemies at range as well but require the use of at least one hand to carry them as they cannot be sheathed.
Survival:Knowledge of ones surroundings, finding resources such as food and water, building and finding shelter, awareness of natural threats and potential hazards, heightened awareness. This character is at home in the wilds and possesses a wide set of skills that can be applied in most situations - some even in a city setting. They have keen senses and are more alert to tell tale signs which may help with tracking of prey and people.
Thieving:
Stealth, spying, trap identification and disarmament, poisons, locks and safeguards and theft. This character is just as the name suggests, a thief. Thieving is a mish mash of underground and commonly illegal knowledge which is hard to acquire elsewhere. Takes one to know one.
1 Handed Melee Weaponry:
Being generally smaller and lighter, weapons that require the use of one hand can be very swift and accurate in combat. This applies to small daggers through larger swords and clubs, axes and the like. Characters with this talent may also use a shield in their off hand.
2 Handed Melee Weaponry:
This weapon preference has the character quite capable when using large, two handed weapons such as claymores and war maces. This skill does not include long hafted weapons such as spears, staves and halberds as their application and use is very different. The best way to identify the difference is whether you hands are grouped together or apart on the weapons haft.
1 Handed Ranged Weaponry *:
Whether hurled with one hand or two, this talent allows a character to be proficient with the use or thrown projectile weapons. Whilst their range is far from impressive, the ease of use, light weight and ease of concealment makes them a great choice for many adventurers. This includes smaller weapons like shuriken, through weapons like Glaives. If a weapon has both thrown and melee applications, this only applies to throwing it.
2 Handed Ranged Weaponry *:
Whilst a two handed ranged weapon may seem cumbersome and somewhat slow, having a power advantage and greater range can make all the difference in combat. Your enemy cannot best you if they cannot get close enough with their face intact....

[Miroslaw]

I think the shield talent would be a great idea. It could be a reason there is a lack of shield wielders too. I know when I first was creating a character, it was the reason I strayed away from using a shield.

As far as perception goes, it is currently part of survival, right? I think breaking it off would not be a bad idea, but would also cause a bit of spreading talents thin.

Mental Fatigue is a great idea for a talent. I think with further training, it should lead to having a greater resilience to the drain. Again, this is kind of a part of each element talent, right? If you have higher fire magic, your mental fatigue when using fire is increased as a result, if I understand it correctly.

[Neko]

Updated first post to include talent list and descriptions for easy reference...


The Shield Talent I like. As discussed in the chat I feel it should be treated much like a weaponry talent where higher skill effects your chance to block and bash. Like using a sword or other weapon. Should be easy enough to add once we decide if we need to make other changes...


Perception/awareness - Yeah I think alot of people tie it to Survival, but what about things outside of a woodland setting? Does the character notice the face in the crowd? The person slipping up behind you in the tavern? The scrap of paper sticking out of the old book? that kind of thing was what I had in mind for this talent.


Mental Fatigue - Yes currently the magic system is that all magic causes a certain ammount of fatigue. the higher the level of effect the more the fatigue you incur. The idea behind this talent would be that it would represent the characters willpower and mental strength. Perhaps lessening the fatigue incurred, increasing the recovery rate, and possibly offering protection versus mental effects...


Thoughts on how this would effect existing characters - Its been mentioned in chat to allow a one time shift of up to 3 points to any new talents added...


Are there other gaps in skills we need to fill?


Are there Talents that could be combine/eliminated?


I've also toyed with the idea of putting a cap on talents for starting characters. Max of level 3 or something like that to promote both growth in character and diversity in talents. Thoughts???

[Deerfield]

First of all, we should order them systematically, and not alphabetically:

Basics: dual weilding should not be linked to agility, should be an own skill, will come to that later with the combat talents. Then we should have a mental endurance talent along with the physical endurance one.

Agility
Brawn
Endurance

Non-combat: this seems fine the way it is. I really like the difference between kinship and liaison, nice job. Here we could add more talents. One idea thats been voiced is perception/awareness. It is different to mental endurance. Something one has to have learned. Survival is more like a special kind of Lore that is learned by experience and not through books. Though many talents support eachother, its important to differentiate.

Physical Appeal (or maybe to physical basics? I think it belongs here)
Arts
Ingenuity
Kinship
Liaison
Lore
Medicine
Survival
Thieving

Magic: I don't really care about magic, sorry ^^. seems good though. I suggest to change healing magic to elemental Magic - Life, so one can imfluence plants etc with that talent as well.But once Life is gone (dead) it can not be brought back again with this talent. So no reviving beyond a certain point. No creating life, just influencing it.

Elemental Magic - Air
Elemental Magic - Blood
Elemental Magic - Earth
Elemental Magic - Dark
Elemental Magic - Fire
Elemental Magic - Light
Elemental Magic - Water
Healing Magic

Combat: So here's where the big discussion is I think. We should not link the talents to the weapons themselves, but to the combat style used. Our current list seems kinda random when I really think about it.

Martial Prowess
Polearm Weaponry
1 Handed Melee Weaponry
2 Handed Melee Weaponry
1 Handed Ranged Weaponry
2 Handed Ranged Weaponry

Therefore, I suggest this list of combat skills:

Weaponless (Martial Prowess?)

One 1-Handed Melee Weapon 
Two 1-Handed Melee Weapons (instead of dual wielding linked to agility. Even if you wield two normally twohanded weapons like claymores, this is still your talent since you hold both with just one hand)
1-Handed Melee Weapon and Shield

2-Handed Melee Weapon (even if you use a shortsword with two hands, cause your a hobbit for example)

2-Handed Polearm Weapon (for example halbard, or spear if you use it with two hands)
two 1-Handed Polearm Weapons (dual wielding spears, actually seen it before)
1-Handed Polearm Weapon and Shield (the jousting knight for example, or the man in the phalanx)

Ranged Weapon (No matter how you hold it, or with how many hands)
Dual Wielding with Ranged Weaponry (1-Handed Ranged Weapon combined with another 1-Handed Ranged Weapon, a 1-Handed Melee Weapon, or a Shield)
Thrown Weapons (for example darts, throwing daggers, can be used in combination with any of the above)

[Neko]

I like alot of what you have to say here, Deerfield. And how its written/broken down. May call on you for help fleshing this out once we get to putting it out there...


I like the reorganization...should be easy enough to do when we put out the revamp as the list would be changing anyway...


We could call the Mental Endurance talent something like Willpower...


Non- combat talents look good but I could see Arts and Ingenuity being combine into one talent and calling it Craftsmanship to cover all versions of creating things. Afterall Leatherworkers and blacksmiths are artists too... and then what kind of craftsman would come out in RP or by way of another idea ive kicked around that I will get to at the end of this post...

I could also see Physical Appeal going away and falling under Liason... If I have a 0 or low Physical appeal does that mean my character is ugly or plain?? If its supposed to represent how you carry yourself or present yourself (Well dressed, makeup, etc...) wouldnt that also be a part of Liason??


I like the idea of changing Healing Magic to Life magic. It would give the talent more depth and power outside of just being a Healer type... And give us something we get asked for alot... Control over plantlife, etc... Though Id probably limit it to just plantlife and not control over animals... leave that to Kinship and other skills...


Combat talents - I like some of the stuff here, but its also bordering on too much...

i think maybe combining Polearm into two-handed weaponry would help as Polearms are two handed weapons...

Martial Prowess is unarmed/weaponless so we are good there

Not sold on the idea of spliting Dual Wielding into its own talent or multiple talents. But not completely closed off to the idea if others think it sounds the best way to go...

I could go either way in breaking Thrown weapons and projectile weapons into seperate catagories, but maybe the same thing could be done by said idea mentioned before with Craftsmanship that i will list later...

Liking Shield as its own thing so we would have a list like this...

Martial Prowess
One-handed Melee
Two-handed Melee
Shield
Ranged Weapon

With maybe splitting ranged into...

Projectile Weapon
Thrown Weapon



So the idea I had mentioned a few times above was to have a Specialzation option available to each Talent available at certain ranks. Say 3 and 5 or something like that. This is best shown in a weaponry talent...

Player X hits level 3 in Two handed Melee and selects Swords as a specialization. That would not mean that he would not be good if he picked up a staff, just that he would be better if he had a sword since while both could be two handed, they are handled differently.

Could also be used with the proposed Craftsmanship talent. Are you a leatherworker, or a painter, or a carver?

Someone with Thieving might be better at pickpocketing than Sneaking...

Someone with Ranged Weaponry could then specialize in Thrown, Bow, etc... and thus prevent the need for too many Talents...

And so on for other talents...

[Miroslaw]

Excellent stuff being brought up here. I do agree that have too many talents could be a problem. At the same time, with regard to weapon skills, people are going to focus on select categories no matter how many categories of weapons there are. That being the case, I think splitting the weapons up into more focused groups is not a bad thing.

I think splitting the dual wielding off from agility is a good idea. Dual wielding really does come down to dexterity which is not necessarily a part of agility. If someone has 0 agility, but a 5 in dual wielding, that would mean they are just dexterous, but lethargic in their movements. At the same time, if it is split off, what would be the point of taking only one handed weaponry? Perhaps a free hand for magic casting or personal character stuff, but I feel like it would cause a bit more gravitation away from single handed weaponry.

Combining the shield talent with a weapon skill, as Deerfield showed, is interesting. Having a separate shield talent would force separating weapons skills. For example... one handed weaponry and shield. While someone specializing in two-handed would only need to put points in two handed weaponry, thus allowing extra points outside of weapon skills. By combining them, it creates some equality in that aspect. Leaving it separate may incite reason for single handed melee (not dual wield) to be taken.

I also second the idea of converting healing to life magic. As Alex said, it gives it more depth. Only being able to control non-sentient life. Things with a will of their own would not be able to be controlled by life magic. I can see it being overly powerful if animals could be controlled.

I also really like the idea Alex brought up of specializing upon reaching 3. I think there is merit to the idea. Just because someone is all around good at something, doesn't mean they will not have greater skill at a specific aspect of the skill.

Combining the talents that Alex mentioned makes sense, provided the specialization idea is also accepted. For the idea on specifically craftsmanship. If someone has a 5 in craftsmanship, does that make them good at everything, or a specific area such as leather-working? Would craftsmanship specialization be a bit more... absolute than a weapon specialization? I am also for Physical appeal going away and being brought out in Liason. This would also free up some space for new talents like perception.

Also, a tid bit on Martial Prowess. Does this include weapons that maintain the "unarmed" style, Like an punch daggers, knuckles, claw-like weapons?

[Grayell]

I'm going to ask that the game system not be altered without my approval guys. I can archive the current system and you guys can build from the ground up, or you can alternatively start a new home site, but please don't edit the work that's been done and the system in place.

Thanks.

[Grayell]

Whilst I know you guys can appreciate my not wanting to alter the work I've done, I thought I'd at least weigh in (briefly). Excuse me if you've heard it before.

- The system is just the framework for roleplay and therefore, is simple. It prevents people being overpowered and provides some motivation for growth but is entirely secondary to actually weaving tales together. In no way should it inhibit your ability to have fun together, if you feel it is; I would suggest the issue is not the game itself and instead, this may be the wrong game for you. That's not meant to be offensive in the slightest.

- I have built far more in depth systems than this one and can tell you first hand that they don't work nearly as well. I have trimmed more from this game than I have added to it and have been satisfied with the results. Again, if you'd like more complexity and are driven by a game's mechanics, you might look into something more traditional. I know there's plenty of rule-heavy rpgs available but could not presently recommend any.

Now, to be more specific:

- The one handed melee skill states that a user with that skill could use a shield in their off hand. Given that there are no 'shield bash' feats and so on and no hit points and what not, I can't imagine the benefit of a shield skill. You're looking down the 'well blunt weapons and edged weapons should have different skills, as they're used differently' and so on. Then you end up at weapon specialization and that leads to all weapons needing to be categorized..... I think you can appreciate why the weapon skills are vague and only differ in obvious way. That said, a spear and a claymore may occupy both hands but in no way are similar in battle. Polearms were the one exception.

- Healing magic has depth, which is completely dependent on someone utilizing it in game, like any other skill. Given the lack of healing items being used, coupled with a lack of any real reason to use them, it is the one stop skill for players who consider their ability to not die. Again, without GMs injuring or maiming people, it will be a very lackluster skill. Personally, I like the idea of the healer in my party casting a regen aura to help out when fighting that small army. I would be more inclined to see medicine go, but science and healing magic just aren't the same thing.

- Plant magic is unnecessary, as the magic system is built on the elements. Saying trees aren't sentient doesn't fly in an RPG world and really, it's been demonstrated as OP before. I can say this, because I have done it. Again, there are other games that will let you get your super-druid on. I put this one in the necromancy pot.

- Magic endurance is covered in the comprehensive magic guide. I would recommend that everyone read it as all questions are answered there and it seems that some impressions of the system aren't quite correct. Again, the system is a framework, you don't need more MP as you're not using any. As far as resilience to mental attacks go, their really aren't any unless nasty monsters do them and in that case, GREAT! They shouldn't be subject to all the same rules, as they are meant to be monsters.

- The physical appeal skill is shallow and unlike other skills. I'm well aware it seems silly. But whilst we can debate it's being there.... you'll notice the majority of players use it. We should all be ashamed for being so shallow, lol. Really, we could have 'perks' but then, that would mean a system change and yawn.... it's still just the guidelines. Admit it, you like being prettier.

I think that about covers it, except for dual wielding being a part of agility and so on. The reason that happened was simple - people were burning points on being flashy with NO benefit. Historically, dual wielding is really a very poor idea and it's movies that have made everyone into a dual wielding mysterious stranger type with a dead family. It was easier to associate it with coordination and well, agility is the skill that covers that. Again, the skill set is meant to be simple and not a glossary of all the things fantasy people might be able to do better.

Think about it - what does your character sheet matter when it comes to the imagery you summon with your words? I don't much care what weapon is used and how, I don't even care for the blow-by-blow accounts of battle. The interaction of the character with the world they live in is what will get people reading.

That and nudity. Again, we have a skill for that. Lol.

[Grayell]

Oh and one more thing - specializations.

Seriously, cap your own character. You may have 5 points in thieving, but I would be FAR more impressed with the player who simply chose to be more compelling with 'they're very stealthy but fumble pickpocketing'. Have some modesty and limit your own character.

If players can't flesh out their character themselves, adding to the system won't help.

[Neko]

Thank you for your input, Grayell. It's always good to get your view on things as the creator of this system. Rest assured that no changes would have been made without contacting you first. This was not intended to remake the wheel or start a whole new system, but to discuss possible tweaks to the existing system in regards to any possible gaps or overlaps that may exist. Sometimes its good to get a fresh set of eyes and input from others that may catch things that were missed or update things.

I know that in addition to changes to allowed races (Cant wait to see any more info on that, and willing to help flesh out what you've got already if I can help) you were also looking at alterations to the Talent area at least in regards to progression and scale (1-10 instead of 1-5 for example. And again more than willing to help in any way I can with those changes as well) and would have collected these ideas to pass on to you while you worked on that as it may help with your work.

Glad to see you back and hope this is a sign of you being able to be here more than you've been able to recently.

[Grayell]

A couple more things that I saw mention of, please excuse me if I'm not 100% accurate as it's been a while since I waded through the rules.

Weapons impacted by martial prowess - this will either be specific to the weapon, due to their not being clearly defined weapon types (could do that, but weapons get very exotic very quickly and it leads to plenty of worms in plenty of cans). If you wander through the gloves in the store, you should spot some MP type weapons. I think.

As for dual wielding two handed weapons - they're two handed. There are some items that grant this nifty feat but otherwise, it's simply not available. This also applies to using a polearm and shield together.

[Alexander]

To clarify on the two-handed question. Should a player have such Equipment that would allow the dual-wielding of two-handed weapons. Would the skill then shift to single-handed for how good the character was?

Assuming yes...

[Neko]

FYI, this topic is not dead. Admins and GMs are looking over the suggestions mentioned so far to see what if any changes should be made to improve the system without endangering the simplicity of the design.

Further comments and ideas are welcome as sometimes a fresh set of eyes can see things that those of us more used to the system may miss.