The elemental interaction has been considered prior and will play some role, mostly for normal versus enemy combat. It won't be neglected should people duel, but will hardly be the deciding factor. We are adding depth to magic and allow for some complexity, without having to use countless rules and math. This is being achieved by better definition of our system including each element and fatigue itself.
We won't need another talent to allow people to wield more magic, per the prior discussion regarding endurance and how it is not a measure of health.
Hex [M:40:1020:][D3v:http://rpgmenagerie.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=cs&thread=483&page=1#17914][b]"As the iron leaves fall, our attack will spring..."[/b]
However, if you view endurance as stamina, a fatigue talent would make sense. Endurance = longer physical activity, which is more 'stamina' (think Skyrim) and so a mental stat to counteract that (longer mental activity) might be a viable option.
We all have the same health, but endurance allows people so fight longer (among other things), so shouldn't we have a stat that lets mages cast spells longer? So people who are more combat oriented can focus in more on endurance (longer physical fighting) while people who are more magically oriented to pour their points into a supposed fatigue stat (longer magical fighting). It would also differentiate between warrioresque types and magesque types, or even a hybrid. A Mage could be a great swordsman, but their focus would be more on magic while a warrior could wield fire to his whim, but he wouldn't be able to do it as long as a dedicated Mage as he's more physically inclined.
Think of it as the difference between a runner and a nerd:
The runner could run longer than nerd by far (endurance), while the nerd could spend his day solving math equations without getting as frustrated or confused as the runner (fatigue stat). The runner may be smart, but he wouldn't hve the mental strength to continue solving problems (like mental weight training). The nerd could also be a great sprinter, but a sprinter can't sprint for like 5 miles.
Correct. Just like some people's bodies are in better condition than others. Some people's minds are as well.
Some have more willpower or greater focus than others. With science and math discussions in school or out or people working on puzzles you see people all the time that can go for hours problem solving, yet others that can only last a much shorter time. There are studies on the brain that constant stimulation is good for the brain and can have just as big of an impact on a person's mental abilities as physical exercise has on the body.
I think it would be a good idea to reflect the difference between an undiciplined magic user vs. someone who has spent the time to train and hone his mind for such activity.
After all we would consider there to be a difference between someone with low endurance wearing armor and swinging a weapon vs. someone who has taken the time to develop their body into a fine tuned machine.
Post by Enuyu Suhishi on Feb 21, 2013 11:33:47 GMT -5
The GM's have spoken to this twice now.
Let it go.
Besides, there shouldn't be a fatigue stat.
You know why?
A) It complicates things. This is a system about less complication and more story telling/character building.
B) It isn't about stamina. Yes, we call the consequence of spell casting "fatigue" but it simply is NOT fatigue in the classical sense of the word; at least not as I understand it. My impression is that the act of calling on magical energy taxes the mind and body both, because really, this isn't something people are meant to do. The human body isn't meant to channel the raw creative force of the universe to it's own whims. Doing that, bending the laws of nature to your will, just takes something out of you; and it doesn't matter how much you do it, how much practice you have, it's going to take something out of you in the process. It isn't a muscle you can build or a mental exercise you can perform to bulk up your brain. You're just not meant to do it, and you pay a price for it. That price is "fatigue".
C) Don't think of higher levels of magic meaning you can push more magic around. Think of it instead this way : a mage with a lvl 1 skill can push around the same amount of magic as a mage with a lvl 5 skill. What's the difference? The lvl 1 mage doesn't know how to handle the power very well. He loses it to cracks in the mental image he's using to form the effect, he loses it to imprecise thoughts about how he wants it to happen, he's using brute force instead of applying a lever. The lvl 5 mages have the experience to make a perfect mental image, he has the focus to stay on target, he has great ingenuity in applying force. Their gas tank is the same size. Their ability to deal with the consequences are the same. The difference is the lvl 1 mage has to use more gas to get to the same place that the lvl 5 mage can get to. The lvl 1 mage engine is poorly tuned, leaking, firing on only half the cylinders, and burning oil. The lvl 5 mage is a well tuned racing engine. The lvl 1 mage gets 11 miles to the gallon. The lvl 5 mage gets 60 miles to the gallon. You see what I'm saying?
As always, just my opinion, and I could be wrong. YMMV.
Ha HA! I kill you with my flaming sword of doom. You die.
Hex [M:40:1020:][D3v:http://rpgmenagerie.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=cs&thread=483&page=1#17914][b]"As the iron leaves fall, our attack will spring..."[/b]
I am gonna list my points cause the last post was a novel. This list mainly applies to if Endurance is also considered in battle.
- We should have a counter to endurance for magic users if endurance applies to battle (warriors can last longer with endurance and can hack/slash a lot. Endurance isn't health but rather more similar to the stamina attribute of many games) - More magic types = more versatility, but so is more weapon types yet endurance accounts for weapon wields as magic users don't have a stat that is similar to endurance for them - or, we should have a fatigue recovery system so that magic users can sling low level spells consistently, not constantly, without causing too much tiring (more like a fatigue recovery stat, cause at this point mages who give it their all will be useless. Not saying this should be instant but rather it could allow a user who relies on magic more than might to maybe cast a spell or two every small encounter without too much fatigue. It would be minimal but will increase the capacity of careful mages.) - Maybe a specific thing to differentiate dedicated mages from magic-wielding warriors
Those are my small points that are now condensed. Again, this is purely my opinion and based on the current description of magic and fatigue, and does not address any rework/rewording done to the system through Shen
Post by Enuyu Suhishi on Feb 21, 2013 15:35:55 GMT -5
I could sit here and argue, point by point, but I'm not going to.
Because
A) I think it's getting out of hand
B) I don't think you'd listen anyway
C) I'd just be re-iterating what I've already said.
and
D) I don't want to stir things up anymore, even inadvertently.
So. I've said what I'm going to on the subject and I'm not going to say anymore, unless someone important specifically asks for my opinion on something.
Ha HA! I kill you with my flaming sword of doom. You die.
Hex [M:40:1020:][D3v:http://rpgmenagerie.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=cs&thread=483&page=1#17914][b]"As the iron leaves fall, our attack will spring..."[/b]
Sorry, I never wanted to start up an argument, but I just see some issues I personally have with the magic system and I am just putting my input towards it. You maybe completely correct and I respect that, but I also have opinions that I think need to be addressed more thoroughly, and this may even help define things in the end. I talk more than just fatigue reduction in my post, and I tried to address your points from my point of view. But, as a character of a magic user and having some experience with magic use, I just see things differently. That's all. Besides, I don't think that my argument is going to change anyone's opinions, but I just thought I'd put it out there. You know, since this is a thread about discussing it. Besides, I have literally said every thought I have regarding it in my long post, so if they address it thoroughly, I think it will end my rant about it anyways. And again, I am not the only one who shares this opinion, but rather I am one to really elaborate on it and say it out loud. I am not just speaking for me, but I am also not representing anyone else. It's just thoughts I have in my head. That's all.
Ok, I can wrap this up. Hex, your ideas are not being implemented for the following reasons:
- They would complicate the game. You're asking for balance and fairness in a game that is based on writing, not dice rolls. The system we have works and has caused no issues thus far. Fatigue has been thoroughly covered in the work done so far and no, there's won't be a Fatigue or cool down stat or any combination of the two. We have removed a half dozen talents since inception and every one has not been missed and made the game easier. Adding one simply isn't needed.
- You're placing too much value on Endurance in a battle application. Again, Endurance is not health and all the references to other systems don't change that. We are not Skyrim and good luck to anybody trying something complex in a PVP.
- Mages are glass cannons. In the best games they are glass cannons. They sit at the back of a battle and sling spells and when the tanks die, the mage is in trouble. If he runs out of magic, a dedicated mage is useless. But they wield terrible power. That is how it's played here. If you don't want to be a glass cannon that WILL burn out, then make a better build. There is no reason for a mage to be able to stand and use his magic all day long in combat. It simply isn't going to happen. THAT would be a balance issue.
Asking that we move along to other suggestions.
Hex [M:40:1020:][D3v:http://rpgmenagerie.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=cs&thread=483&page=1#17914][b]"As the iron leaves fall, our attack will spring..."[/b]
Mmkay! Also, I had a question about bombs, as it also regards to magic: if it explodes dealing that type of damage, can a fire bomb light things on fire or a water bomb leave a puddle? Or is it just magical properties that deal that type of damage?
Hex [M:40:1020:][D3v:http://rpgmenagerie.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=cs&thread=483&page=1#17914][b]"As the iron leaves fall, our attack will spring..."[/b]
New types of magic or rather, evolved magic has been considerd but it's been decided it's simply unnecessary. We are not gods and shouldn't have infinite power, so there will be no evolving magic or new types. Prestiging was considered ie: earth mages can put points into a higher metal path but we have decided we simply don't need it and magic as it is, is creative enough. I will let you know to be on the alert for other NPCs and monsters that can do such things though.
As far as the fatigue conversation and the 'I'm a pure mage and should be stronger than a warrior mage' discussion goes, this is already balanced in the simplest ways. Armour increases fatigue. A warrior mage wears it, a pure mage does not. A pure mage can cast spells with greater ease, he will have more magic in reserve due to lower penalties, he will more than likely maintain a safer distance and more range to work with, with less pressure and more time to cast. In return, he is weak in combat and should someone catch him, he is in trouble. These things are already in place.
A warrior mage who decides to NOT wear armour like a pure mage will still be squishy. He can invest points in fighting and that will lend him some defensive ability, but upon getting hit he is in trouble. Endurance does not reduce damage, only armour does. IF you are a mage without ANY other offensive capability besides magic, then that is a stylistic choice and will have it's drawbacks. You will have more magic at your fingertips., combing effects and creating more varied spells.
On the ideal that having more points in magic makes you more learned should give you some degree of greater mental faculty, then so would other Talents such as Lore and Medicine as these are all 'book smart' talents. Going down that path would lead to a right mess with our system. The only way to truly recognize something like that would be with a typical D&D stat system. We have used such systems in the past and quite frankly, they just don't translate to a forum. It's simply no fun spending more time doing math than it is writing. Ask Tauer about his fights as Verin against Renquist, we both spent a lot of time trying to get more out of the system, our gear and spells and buffs and so on. When your opponent has 600 hp and your hit just dealt 4000 damage, you've gone wrong somewhere. (Yes, Ren is that nasty. You don't want to meet Verin, either.)
Whilst a stat could be introduced, I really don't see the value. It's just unnecessary and again, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, Role play is the greater part of our game and you are not rewarded for your build. Focus on enjoyment, rather than comparative power with other players. Next you'll decide you want to catch me in Acclaim, lol.
Hex [M:40:1020:][D3v:http://rpgmenagerie.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=cs&thread=483&page=1#17914][b]"As the iron leaves fall, our attack will spring..."[/b]
Oh jeez, I totally forgot about armor/fatigue. That's embarrassing.
Anyways, I think you're right. Maybe I was just over thinking things (well, when have I not?). So, at the moment, there is no manipulation of ice/metal/lightning/plants purely based on talents, correct?